So, I'm a bit of a systems fiddler: I like taking things apart and seeing how they work. I thought it would be useful to have a thread for taking apart the character creation process with what we have:
Arcana: All characters have a Hubris and a Virtue
Traits: All of the characters have 13 dots of traits.
Skills: Between 15 and 21 dots
Backgrounds: 2 each. Generally, I think 1 is a major character ability, and the other is how the character acts. I think that
- Fate Witch gives Sorte
- Consigliere gives a Vodacce duelling academy
- Mirabilis gives a Castillian Education
- El Vago Vagabond gives Membership (Los Vagos [or whatever they get called])
Advantages: These are the most difficult to quantify, since they don't have points, and I think some are linked to Backgrounds. Note that Reputations are advantages now.
Anyone have other thoughts on the subject?
TAJ-07: Technopriest And Justicar Of 7thSea2e
Oh! This should be fun.
I'll give you this one; Consigliere didn't give Duelist Academy, Bravo did.
One thought that crossed my mind was whether the costs for more dots in things was flat (like oWoD) or increasing (like nWoD), so
If the cost of new dots is related directly to their level: | If it isn't
Alexsy: 25 on Traits, 24 on Skills
Domenica: 25 on Traits, 35 on skills (29, if Sorte is free)
Ennio: 27 on Traits, 32 on Skills
Roberto: 24 on Traits, 32 on Skills
Azucena: 25 on Traits, 26 on Skills
Honestly, for this to work, Aleksy and Azucena would have needed to get higher, so it seems unlikely.
I have three theories on Backgrounds.
Hi, I'm Rob Justice. Fun Fact; I wrote Backgrounds.
Backgrounds work like this: There is a list of Standards and a list of National. Each Hero gets two. You can take two Nationals, two Standards, or one of each. No restrictions there.
Every Background gives 1 Quirk, 5 points worth of Advantages, and 5 Skills at Rank 1.
This was not perfectly reflected in the QS. While the core idea was there the exact numbers fluculated.
As an example*
Assassin
You work in the shadows to take the lives of your enemies.
Quirk
Earn a Hero Point when you take on the burden that no one else would even consider.
Advantages
Fencer
Psst, Over Here
Skills
Athletics
Empathy
Hide
Intimidate
Weaponry
*Example subject to change.
That finally is clear about what "Quirks" are from the description of Hero Points (not clearly mentioned in the QS). I notice that on the Azucena Esquivel character Background Assassin it actually says "You target the person in charge, ignoring as many of the "pawns as possible", also the advantages and skills are different than presented. Stronger point though: since these "Quirks" award Hero Points, shouldn't they represent additional challenges in the story, in a manner similar to Hubrises? All my heroes try to "target the person in charge ignoring pawns", in fact they have never failed to do so.
Wow Thank you Mr. Justice. So this said about how many different Backgrounds can we expect in each catagory? I'm not asking for specifics but more of a rough estimate. FYI I really like the fact that the backgrounds give skills , advantages and quirks. This will make character creation much easier for a new player or people that are wanting a quick pick-up game. With a combination of 2 it has the versitility to make your characters unique but the ease of an archtype. Also thanks for jumping in and giving us little snippets of the game design I know I am not the only one that appreciates it
I'm glad you like how we've setup Backgrounds. I'm really happy with them... but I did write them so I may be bias.
In the core book there are 30 Standard Backgrounds and 27 National Backgrounds. Each Nation has 3 but one nation does something a little different. ;)
As a fun little math project I determined we can create up to 4,368 Backgrounds betwen we'd have to duplicate a Skill combination.
So, to theoize on how that my be extrapolated, we have Avalon, Castille, Eisen, Montaigne, Sarmatian Commonwealth, Ussura, Vendel, and Vodacce with 3 a piece giving us 24. I'm assuming that the Pirate Nations, despite the word being in the title, does not count as one of these nations in the core book, plus it is getting it's own sourcebook right away, which I think makes it a little less likely to get this treatment this early. If one of these nations gets a different number of backgrounds from the rest because it does things differently, that means that there is one nation that gets 6 instead of 3. If that is true, then there are 2 suspects I would look at right away: Avalon (because it actually composed of three nations and each of them might get two backgrounds each? - but I don't think they are the guilty party - it just doesn't seem fair to the other nations) and the Sarmation Commonwealth (because of the quote regarding this new nation, "Two nations bound by a single crown..." and each of those "two nations" would get three backgrounds a piece bringing them in line with the rest).
Also, when thinking about national backgrounds, it might be reasonable to consider that each nation, except Castille and Eisen, has a Sorcery association with it (at least, in 1st ed., but I understand that it sounds like Eisen is getting one this go around), and that these sorceries might be considered national background since they are an inherited kind of magic (assuming 1st ed. influences hold). So, each of the national backgrounds probably has a sorcery-associated background and two others, huh? (Of course, Castille would get the 2e equivalent of Castillian Education instead of a sorcery since we know they won't have El Fuego Adentro in this new edition,) I don't think anything to do with the secret societies would be considered national backgrounds - I think it is a good be they are standard backgrounds. Then my guess would be that it probably breaks down to something similar to themed backgrounds like this:
Avalon (Glamour, Druid/Bard or Legendary Trait, Avalon Swordsman) - I could also see Sidhe-related stuff and MacEachern heiritage type backgrounds here, but John Wick told me at the Kickstarter party not to expect anything with the Sidhe until the Nations Sourcebook with Avalon comes out.
Castille (Castillian Education, Castillian Swordsman, something Church/Inquisition-related)
Eisen (Necromancy or whatever, Military Academy and/or Dracheneisen Heir, Eisen Swordsman)
Montaigne (Porte, Montaigne Swordsman, Montaigne Servant or Puzzle Sword-related)
Sarmatian Commonwealth (Demonic Sorcery, another sorcery, Sarmation Swordsman, another Sarmatian Swordsman, something, something - clearly we don't really know anything yet)
Ussura (Pyeryem, Ussuran Swordsman, something Fhideli-related)
Vendel (Laerdom, Vendel/Vesten Swordsman, Bearsark or Sympathetic Healer)
Vodacce (Sorte, Vodacce Swordsman, Unbound or Courtesan)
I could also see some of these ideas merging under this new concept for backgrounds; like Montaigne swordsman getting puzzle swords, Glamour Sorcerers getting Legendary Trait, Eisen Swordsmen getting Dracheneisen, Castillian's getting a Castille Blade, etc.
I wonder how sorceries are handled with regards to half-blooded and twice-blooded or if that even gets addressed...?
I wonder whether there might be a generic Duelist background (Bravo) rather than one per nation. There will presumably be one background per Secret Society. Given that the Daughters of Sophia have been confirmed, I guess that's all of the ones from 1E. So: Knight of the Rose and Cross, Vagabond, Invisible College, Daughter of Sophia, Kreuzritter, Explorer's Society and Free Thinker. That leaves 23.
So far, the other generics are Aristocrat, Army Officer, Assassin, Bravo, Courtier, Sailor. Which means that there are another 17 generic ones.
Guesses: Priest, Scholar, Soldier, Criminal, Navy Officer, Archaeologist, Outlaw, Church Guard, Doctor, Spy, Merchant Guild, Alchemist
As for the national ones, I like the idea of Avalon having 2 per nation, but then I am Scottish. Some ideas
Man, you guys are good... and a bit off base.
You were right to assume that every Nation with Sorcery has a Background related to that Sorcery.
You were wrong to assume that Secret Societies come from Backgrounds. There are zero Backgrounds related to Secret Soceties.
Hint: Secret Soceties function closer to Nations than Duelist Academies.
Looks more like secret societies are advantages that give quirks?
Nope. Secret Societies are not Advantages and they do not give Quirks. Quirks only come from Backgrounds.
Well, I made the assumption of Secret Societies as backgrounds due to Azucena in the QS having the Background "El Vago Vagabond".
If there are no Secret Society backgrounds, it implies one of two things: either there's been a change since the QS was written, or Los V (whatever they end up being called) are no longer a Secret Society. Having LV purely as a Castillian background would make a certain amount of sense: they're the only one of the 7 books that weren't international in scope. In fact, my 1E players' guide only has 5 secret societies in it: Invisible College, Rose & Cross, Kreuzritter, Explorer's Society and Rilasciare.
It sounds like there's a third list of backgrounds that will be given in the Secret Societies books, where you "Pick Nation, and Secret Society if you want one" and then select 2 Backgrounds from the General, National and Societies that you have access to.
Secret Soceties have changed since the QS was released.
There are currently no plans for Secret Soceties to have Backgrounds.
Putting together what you've said, they must be either instead of or as well as your nation then.
Yeah, like I said; Secret Soceties function closer to Nations than Duelist Academies. ;)
So not like "El Vago Vagobond" from the QS rules? (Azucena Esquivel >Backgrounds section)
I remember seeing John post somewhere about character generation. He said it takes 5 minutes. From memory:
choose arcana
choose 2 backgrounds (which appear to give 5 skills each as well as advantages)
spend 5 points on stuff - can't remember if he said skills or advantages or either.
Of course, all this is subject to change.
Yeaaaah, I heard John say that and I winced. It might take five minutes once you have a firm grasp of all your options but having just ran some people through character creation it takes a little more than five minutes.
Here's a top level overview of how you create a character:
So it really comes down to numbers then. How traits are assigned, how many skill points to be distributed, how many points for advantages. (No, not asking or expecting specifics. I'll wait.
) I suspect one could put together a few distribution arrays to help speed things up too. I really like the idea of backgrounds doing a lot of the heavy lifting.
I'm guessing we might see a return of 20 Questions?
So, I'm going to try to expand upon that
How's that then?
Rob has stated that their are no SS background.... but beyond that, seems logical.
I've never understood this phrasing:Assign Traits
That is actually: You have one dot in each trait. Divide 7 addittional dots between the five traits, maximum 4. Splitting hairs I suppose...
Judging my reverse engineering:
Interesting. Our first look at how character creation works.
This is why, for games like 7th Sea and Savage World's, I prefer an array option over point buy for determining traits and skills. It just makes things faster for new and casual players. I don't know why, but there is a big paradigm shift between "distribute 10 points" and "put four pips in your most important trait".
This is why I was excited to hear that Advatage choice was going to be tied to backgrounds. But it looks like there will still be some point buy going on there.
It doesn't need to be point buy to bog players. Some people just hit the analysis paralysis and shut down. You tell them to toss 4 pips into stats they find important and they will weigh the value of each stat and the odds they will use it.
See, my method of character creation 90% of the time:
I think the biggest misconception here is that Story isn't a mechanic.
Your character's Hero Story is a mechanic in the game and it's best if it's written after all the character creation bits.
Well, I can see it. Once you have the character, you then go and make the story that fits with the various Advantages and such. Or you write the story, and then pick advantages and such to fit it. Though, 2nd could be different from first in that regard, so I will defer to your judgement.
The difference here is that before you make a character you should have at least a rough story (lowercase) in mind, but there is a mechanic on your character sheet called Story (uppercase) that should wait until the end of Hero Creation to fill out. ;)
Ahhh... I like that. Can't wait to see it. Sounds like a fun character creation mechanic.
So there's an unwritten "create basic character concept" step, which really almost any system is going to have, which is what the "story first" people are probably thinking of.
I like the simplicity, because I'm one of those players who hates character creation -- to the point where my Exalted character was created for my by my husband/GM (at my suggestion, because I trust him), and I learned about her and further created her in equal parts once we started playing. We did do a little re-jiggering of stats after a few sessions, but mostly she worked, and we've been playing that campaign for years.
Morgan Wolfe
aka Capt. Doña Sir Kestrel of Avalon http://silver-gateway.com/7sea/
How cool will it be if John Wick, the creator of 7th Sea, could also grace us with his presence, especially in these rules discussions.
TAJ-07: Technopriest And Justicar Of 7thSea2e
I wouldn't hold my breath for that one. John and Mike have very aggressive deadline's right now.
Hey Rob,
While I've no doubt the three of you are working at breakneck speed with no time to spare, something I – and I suspect I'm not the only one around here – would love to see once the dust settles is a "making of 7th Sea 2". Maybe something along the lines of this:
https://www.peginc.com/freebies/SWcore/MakingofSW.pdf
No hurry or anything. Obviously, it can wait. But I'd love to get the inside dirt on the genesis of the new edition.
I second this.
How are they counterproductive? One can be trusting of people, while still having a strong Will. They are not mutually exclusive. When he sets his mind to something, it is hard to change it, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't belive people when they state they go along with the idea. Also, that would be going against the character of Alexsy, since he believes based on what we know, that the country is in trouble because of the Nobles Veto power. So for him to suddenly jump ship on his own ideals would actually be going AGAINST his Indomitable Will....
If you have ever met a strong willed person, you might have recognized a tendency to believe something very strongly and be unshakable in that belief, regardless of what confronts them. Being strong willed, however, is no guarantee against being dead wrong or believing someone who is dead wrong. Trusting + Indomitable Will is actually a recipe for disaster if the wrong person whispers in your ear and you decide to believe them. I think decide is the key here. You cannot be convinced, but as a player you decide when to trigger your Hubris, and in turn your character decides to believe the speaker.
“Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.”
- H.L. Mencken
Well, in the QS, since I was Alexy I did trust the Black Cat, because I had known and grown up with her. She could have been a spy, she could have been out to betray me, but she was also the only one who offered help. I didn't nessisarily believe she was on our side, but trusted her anyway.
You are right though, that combo can have awesome consiquences to it. I was actually thinking in our group (if possible), playing Alexy some more. But we will see how CC comes around. But for what little I was given, I really enjoyed the character and felt connected to him, and I don't usually have that feeling from pre-gens. Also, based on what I have read, the QS is like a 'prequel' of sorts... but we shall see.
This is overall very enlightening. Considering how closley background is essential to character creation, I am already wishing it was less Crunch and more Fluff. I predict players pouring over Background options shopping for hours for the one that looks to be best. Most players will not know what each package includes and will be asking me constantly what makes X advantage better than Y advantage. I see no net gain from 1E character creation times. I would bet given a batch of average gamers, 1 hour at least more with power gamer types.
As I am working out how to get some extra characters generated for the QS, I was wondering if anyone had an idea what the point values and point buy for Advantages are in the QS. Traits and skills appear to be "dot for dot" so moving those around is fairly simple and other stats seem relatively easy to replicate. Advantages, however, are kind of a crapshoot. I've sorted them into a few categories for the purpose of sorting out potential costs. Note that I don't think this is how they will be sorted in the books.
Category A: Always Active - Minor
These Advantages provide a constant but limited effect.
Examples:
SEA LEGS: While aboard a ship, treacherous footing never affects you. You gain 1 bonus die on any Physical Risk while aboard a ship at sea.
LARGE: All of your Intimidation Risks have one extra die. Any Physical Risk you take that would benefit from your size (lifting large or heavy objects, for example) gains one extra die.
Category B: Hero Point Activated
These Advantages have more potent effects but require a Hero Point to activate and are usually once per Session.
Examples:
INDOMITABLE WILL: Spend a Hero Point. You cannot be intimidated, seduced, or otherwise goaded into acting a way that you do not wish. You can do this once per game session.
COME HITHER: Spend a Hero Point to lure another character into a private room and leave said private room without them, removing them from the scene. They may be rescued later, after you’re long gone. You can do this once per game session.
Category C: Narrative - Narrow
These Advantages provide a non-mechanical or narrative benefit in specific situations.
Examples:
ABLE DRINKER: Alcohol never affects you, no matter how much you drink.
LINGUIST: You speak, read, and write all Thean languages. Even the dead ones.
Category D: Narrative - Social
These Advantages confer social benefits such as allies or membership in a group. These appear scalable though may balance out: one loyal Ally might be as valuable as several associates.
Examples:
ALLY (VESPUCCI VASSALS): You have a connection with a particular NPC or minor faction. An Ally is a close friend who would walk through fire for you.
CONFIDANTS (MILITARY): You have a connection with a particular NPC or minor faction. Confidants are people you trust, and will help you with minimal payment as long as it isn’t likely to cause them harm or cost them dearly.
MEMBERSHIP (LOS VAGOS): You are a member in good standing with Los Vagos, a secret society of vigilantes. You have a passphrase you can use to identify yourself to other members and to friends of the society.
Category E: Schools
These Advantages provide combat oriented benefits in excess of Category A (Always Active - Minor)
Example:
DUELING ACADEMY (AMBROGIA): When wielding a Dagger in your right hand and a Fencing Sword in the left, you use Weapon (Dagger) + Weapon (Sword) + Panache to build your Weapon Risk Pool.
Category F: Blended
These Advantages provide the benefits associated with any two Categories in a single Advantage.
Examples:
CASTILLIAN EDUCATION: Whenever you make a Know Risk, add 1 to the value of each die. You may spend a Hero Point to grant another Hero a Rank in a Skill, so long as your Ranks in that Skill are higher than theirs. This Skill Rank lasts until the end of the Scene. A Hero can only receive a Skill Rank in this way once per game Session. [Categories A + B]
ORDAINED: You can expect refuge in any church as well as a place to stay and hot meals. You also have access to many (but not all) of the Church’s libraries. Finally, you gain 2 dice for any Social Risks against characters who are adherents to your faith.
Category G: Scalable
These Advantages have a variable effect and thus likely a variable price.
Example:
REPUTATION (RESOURCEFUL): When you attempt to use your reputation to your advantage in a Social Risk, you gain a bonus die. You can do this once per game session.
REPUTATION (PRINCIPLED): When you attempt to use your reputation to your advantage in a Social Risk, you gain 2 bonus dice. You can do this once per game session.
Point Value Logic
JohnWick: "Assign values to Traits, pick two Backgrounds, spend 5 points of Advantages, and you’re done"
Rob Justice: "Every Background gives 1 Quirk, 5 points worth of Advantages, and 5 Skills at Rank 1"
I will assume, for the moment, that both statements remain operative. This means that 10 points of Advantages come from Backgrounds and 5 are discretionary. As each Background provides 5 points (which cannot be split evenly), all associated backgrounds (or 2 of the 3 if three are granted) must have different values. I am also assuming no Advantage has a point value less than one.
Alexsy Gracjan Nowak
Army Officer: [LEADERSHIP (B) + CONFIDANTS(D)]
Aristocrat: [INDOMITABLE WILL(B) + REPUTATION(G)]
Takeaway: As LARGE is unlikely to be associated with any Background, the above pairings make the most sense though CONFIDANTS and REPUTATION could be reversed (unlikely). REPUTATION 2 must cost more than REPUTATION 1, which cannot cost 0, REPUTATION 2 must cost at least 2 points, and as it is scalable, it is likely to cost 1 point per rank. INDOMITABLE WILL therefore cannot cost greater than 3 and most likely costs 3.
Domenica Vespucci
Courtier:
Most Likely: [FRIEND AT COURT(B) + ALLY (D)]
Possible: [FRIEND AT COURT (B) + REPUTATION(G)]
Possible: [FRIEND AT COURT (B) + REPUTATION(G) + ALLY (D)] ]
Least Likely: [FRIEND AT COURT (B) + COME HITHER (B)]
Fate Witch: [SOTRE + ?]
Takeaway: Domenica's sorcery makes this one very difficult to call but it does appear that FRIEND AT COURT has a value likely value of 3 or 4, with 4 being the least probable of the two. If CONFIDANTS and ALLY are equivalent, LEADERSHIP has a likely value of 3 and a possible value of 4.
Ennio Vespucci
Bravo:
Likely: [DUELING ACADEMY (E) + COMBAT REFLEXES (?)]
Possible: [DUELING ACADEMY (E) + LEFT-HANDED (A)]
Possible: [DUELING ACADEMY (E) + MEMBERSHIP (D)]
Unlikely: [DUELING ACADEMY (E) + MEMBERSHIP (D) + LEFT-HANDED (A)]
Unlikely: [DUELING ACADEMY (E) + MEMBERSHIP (D) + COMBAT REFLEXES (?)]
Unlikely: [DUELING ACADEMY (E) + COMBAT REFLEXES (?)+ LEFT-HANDED (A)]
Consigliere: [INDOMITABLE WILL(B) + POISON IMMUNITY(A)]
Takeaway: Bravo is a tough one, even with DUELING ACADEMY (E) as a give , mostly because COMBAT REFLEXES addresses a mechanic which does not appear in the QS: Speed. Speed appears to be an artifact of previous Dueling Rules, so assigning a value to COMBAT REFLEXES is nigh impossible. Consigliere is a bit easier as any other pairing of Advantages does not fit the implications of the Quirk. With INDOMITABLE WILL at 3, this sets POISON IMMUNITY at 2, which seems appropriate for the power level.
Roberto Gallo
Sailor:
Likely: [HANDY (B) + SEA LEGS(A)]
Possible: [HANDY (B) + SEA LEGS(A) + ABLE DRINKER(C)]
Mirabilis:
Possible: [CASTILLIAN EDUCATION(F)]
Possible: [CASTILLIAN EDUCATION(F) + ?]
Takeaway: As I am betting this is Rob's character, it may well be where some of the "fluctuations" occur, especially because Both Backgrounds changed from QSv1 to QSv2 but no Advantages were added or removed. Some assessment could be based on trends, but then I might be bending the numbers to fit the mold rather that figuring out the numbers to build the mold.
Azucena Esquivel
El Vago Vagabond:
Likely: [SECOND STORY WORK(B) + MEMBERSHIP(D)]
Possible [SECOND STORY WORK(B) + MEMBERSHIP(D) + ALLY(D)]
Unlikely: [MEMBERSHIP(D) + ALLY(D)]
Assassin:
Likely: [PSST, OVER HERE (B) + ALLY(D)]
Possible: [PSST, OVER HERE (B) + ALLY(D) + KEEN SENSE (F)]
Takeaway: Based on Rob's example, I am almost certain that PSST, OVER HERE attaches to the Assassin Background and I am doubtful that SMALL attaches to any Background. KEEN SENSE (F) makes things difficult as it provides only a conditional benefit associated with spending a hero point. It would make the most sense for SECOND STORY WORK to be valued around 3 and MEMBERSHIP only makes sense associated with the El Vago Vagabond background, making it's value 1 or 2.
Values
POISON IMMUNITY: 2
FRIEND AT COURT: 3 or 4
INDOMITABLE WILL: 3
LEADERSHIP: 3 or 4
ALLY: 1 or 2
CONFIDANTS: 1 or 2
MEMBERSHIP: 1 or 2
REPUTATION: 1 per Rank
So... How'd I do?
“Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.”
- H.L. Mencken
Haha. Roberto Gallo wasn't\isn't "my" character. John, Mike, and I collaborated on all five character's cconceptally and then Mike built them mechnically.
What can I say, a hard drinking secret/fallen priest turned pirate with a penchant for pistols and blades struck me as "your style."
“Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.”
- H.L. Mencken
Domenica was by far the hardest to get a handel on. With only one Sorcery and one School to look at, it was hard to pair those up. The reason I am not sure Dueling School costs 5 is that it would be odd to see a Background give only one Advantage where most of the others seem to give 2.
“Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.”
- H.L. Mencken
Pages