I've been kicking around a number of thoughts on Porte, so I thought I'd offer them here and see if anyone else has been feeling the same way or want to soundboard on a few tweaks as well.
==Wounds==
One thing that did bug me was the cost of a Dramatic Wound when using the Socery, and I've been contemplating a few ways around it. A part of the thought was due to the novelization (a Porte user not injuring themselves and not opening a blessure), and another was just an issue with the way the mechanic worked.
That said, I've been kicking around the following ideas:
1) Hero Point expenditure instead of a wound. This puts it more in tune with the rest of the sorceries and keeps players having to constantly spend Wealth on healing (healing rules are something else I'm tweaking).
2) Set the damage to an automatic 5 wounds. This means it still causes a Dramatic Wound, but when used in combat or in another type of scene, the player may spend Raises to reduce the amount of wounds.
2.5) Set wound costs for specific tasks. Opening a portal to Walk in is 5 Wounds, while opening for a pull is 3 Wounds.
=="Lost" Tricks?==
The first edition had a number of additional tricks beyond Mark/Blood, Pull, and Walk. I'm just throwing these out here as options to consider.
1) Catch: I think this one is more narrative as it allows the character to "catch" bullets and the like. Sadly, with the rules as they are, it means the user is taking an automatic Dramatic Wound.
Personally, I think spending a Hero Point and spending the raises to negate the damage of a bullet would be pretty interesting, but that's just my opinion.
2) Pocket: This was always a favorite trick of mine in games, and I do wish it'd come back. Have a number of items in a "pocket" (perhaps a number equal to purchases of Sorcery? Sorceryx2?) that you can open a portal and access.
As leaving things in the pocket was always a risk, roll a d10 when accessing it. If it's a 1, the item is lost.
This type of usage should benefit from the wound discussion from above.
3) Pass: This was a bit of a fun aside that I thought was interesting. Basically, for those not familiar with it, you can take an object and "pass" it to another sorcerer, specifically someone from your bloodline (sibling, twin, etc). This allowed Porte Couriers to become even better at what they do, as it would allow them to deliver messages and stay in one place until the response was delivered (usually via chalkboard marked by both parties).
This type of usage should benefit from the wound discussion from above.
That's as far as my notes have gone. Anyone have any input?
"Smilies exist because no one's bothered to create a sarcasm font." --Lost_Heretic
I always liked catch: the only active defense against firearms :) But meaningless, if it costs you a dramatic would to use :(
I do feel that varying the wound cost basedon the size of the hole would make a certain amount of sense. Grabbing a knife just takes a sliced thumb, but bringing yourself and your mates halfway around the world is a bit more bloody. And a whole ship probably cost a few pints.
There were also Gates: permanent portals between specific locations that stole lifeforce from whoever passed through.
I do feel that varying the wound cost basedon the size of the hole would make a certain amount of sense. Grabbing a knife just takes a sliced thumb, but bringing yourself and your mates halfway around the world is a bit more bloody. And a whole ship probably cost a few pints.
I'm glad to know I'm not the only one thinking that smaller holes should cause less wounds, and I do think the Hero Point expenditure should be an option (and since the power is mostly narrative with a few mechanical benefits, the Dramatic Wound option isstill sound in my book).
I always liked catch: the only active defense against firearms :) But meaningless, if it costs you a dramatic would to use :(
Agreed, but if the hole created only causes a few minor wounds, or a Hero Point can be spent to negate the wounds, what would you think of that?
There were also Gates: permanent portals between specific locations that stole lifeforce from whoever passed through.
Gates were all sorts of crazy that I felt best left as plot devices, as it had such a toll on characters (including death). I wouldn't object to the concept returning, but I'm not sure the best way to recreate it just yet.
"Smilies exist because no one's bothered to create a sarcasm font." --Lost_Heretic
Have you thought through the play ramifications of removing the dramatic wound cost? I'm not criticizing the move – porte was one of those sorceries I've never really groked beyond the "teleportation" aspect, but that means I'm not tuned in to how prone it is to abuse by creative players. So if you make the cost a HP instead of a DW, what does that then let the players do? Especially when it comes to being able to teleport the whole group.
You're right that catch doesn't make any sense if the price is a DW. I'd prefer a HP to wounds, though.
Tom
One of my favorite parts of Porte was not the teleporting (as I never had the chance to play a full-blooded sorcerer in the 1st Edition, only one short campaign as half-blood), but the other utlity elements of the magic. Knowing I could mark and track something was always useful, but being purposely locked in a prison and knowing I can open a Pocket and bring out a handful of pistols, lockpicks, and a bottle of wine (because let's do this in style!) was what made the magic appealing to me.
That said, making it an HP instead of a DW (and allowing the rotation between the two) means that a character can do more than 4 uses of ANY part of the sorcery before falling unconscious (as healing Dramatic Wounds takes forever and/or a lot of Wealth). Porte is also the ONLY sorcery that mandates wounds, while the rest use HP instead; the closest we see would be the resolution of Fate Lashes (which have other alternative effects as well).
As for teleporting the whole party, it is 1 HP per additional character brought along, after all, so that won't change.
With regards to Catch, I do think the idea of spending an HP and a Raise to negate the Dramatic Wound, followed by and additional raises they choose to spend to negate the rest of the damage would be pretty awesome.
"Smilies exist because no one's bothered to create a sarcasm font." --Lost_Heretic
I think the "take a DW when using" was put into place as a balance factor simply because at-will teleportation (be it of the PC or of desired items) can be a real storybreaker power. Simply taking one rank of Sorcery allows a Montaigne Duelist to blood their favorite sword, making it so that they can easily walk into a place unarmed, yet have instant access to said sword and thus their duelist manuevers. Or an assassin taking the single rank and blooding a pistol that they can call to them just as they are getting ready to attack their designated target. To say nothing of being able to instantly flee a bad situation by walking to your Major Mark and leaving your enemies unable to follow. Depending on the group, Hero Points may be freely available, and thus not much of a "cost" to a Porte mage to use an ability that can very dramatically alter the tone of a situation. Having Porte cost a Dramatic Wound (especially for Walking) helps keep a sense of balance to the overall story.
That being said, I coudl see reducing the costs of Pulling a marked item from a full DW to perhaps 5 Wounds less the mage's Resolve; the sterner and heartier the mage is, the less of a strain it is both mentally and physically to open a portal. And with the Wounds themselves being less of a "draw my own blood" but more a tithe paid in the mage's stamina, not too unlike a Fate Witch having to incur Lashes when using Sorte.
That or if you want to make the usage of Pulling more common, simply say that a Porte mage can only use that ability a number of times equal to their Resolve during a session; anything above that and you pay in literal blood by having to take a DW.
From the story, it sounds like the author was going more by the 1e rendition of Porte where the nobles just had blood-stained hands instead of the 2e version of how Porte operates.
As for the 1e Catch Knack, in 2e such a thing is currently the domain of the Wits Glamours Arrow Catch (minor) and Bullet Catch (major). While I'm not saying such a thing should be impossible for Porte mages, neither should it be easy to accomplish, especially as there's another sorcery that has that sort of feat as one of its major tricks.
Pocket kind of already exists within the realm of the mechanics for Pulling an object, and could just be described as having the blooded object in a "Porte pocket" as opposed to stashed elsewhere in the world.
Dono's Gaming & Etc Blog
http://jedimorningfire.blogspot.com/
I'm approaching your responses in a slightly different order here, so please be patient.
From the story, it sounds like the author was going more by the 1e rendition of Porte where the nobles just had blood-stained hands instead of the 2e version of how Porte operates.
That was actually one of the tickets I opened about the work, as the mage doesn't have any signs of blood on his hands, nor does he wound himself in the process. One of those moments I can't tell if it's sloppy writing or a cleaned up version of the mechanic we'll get in a later book (because it is quite clear that there are a number of changes coming up regarding the mechanics and setting).
Pocket kind of already exists within the realm of the mechanics for Pulling an object, and could just be described as having the blooded object in a "Porte pocket" as opposed to stashed elsewhere in the world.
Yes and no. You can only have so many blooded objects in the first place, as well as having to ensure that your Mark hasn't been removed. Sure, you can Mark your favorite sword or a pistol (as in your other examples), but should a savvy guard notice that your sword has a hastily applied Mark, they may remove it out of fear of what you'd do with it. The alternative I'm looking at with Pocket allows a sorcerer to take a gamble and have a few items hidden away "just in case" that no one can have access to besides themselves.
As I've said in a previous post to BluSponge: it was always nice to know I could have a pocket with a few pistols, lockpicks, and a bottle of wine whenever I would (purposely) get locked up in a prison cell without having to worry about Pulling items to myself (for various reasons).
I coudl see reducing the costs of Pulling a marked item from a full DW to perhaps 5 Wounds less the mage's Resolve; [SNIP]
That or if you want to make the usage of Pulling more common, simply say that a Porte mage can only use that ability a number of times equal to their Resolve during a session; anything above that and you pay in literal blood by having to take a DW.
I'm really wary about making it tied to a specific trait in this edition. Unless you tweak the rules, you only get 15 total points in Traits, and if said Sorcerer is playing up on the Nobility side of things, they'll have a mediocre Resolve (2) and focus on "important" things like Panache, Wits, and Finesse (when needed).
That said, I am glad to know that people are on board with the idea of reducing the Dramatic to standard wounds and coming up with options to reduce them.
Perhaps set it so any open portal about the size of your fist is 3 wounds?
As for the 1e Catch Knack, in 2e such a thing is currently the domain of the Wits Glamours Arrow Catch (minor) and Bullet Catch (major). While I'm not saying such a thing should be impossible for Porte mages, neither should it be easy to accomplish, especially as there's another sorcery that has that sort of feat as one of its major tricks.
On the same token, in 1e, a number of different abilities did bleed over into each other (Catch and I think it was Annie o'the Winds allows throw/fired objects to be caught). Additionally, a number of various general effects of 2e to carry over in general due to the looser mechanical elements (especially when you compare Sorcery to Monster Qualities and the like).
That said, perhaps if Catch required additional Raises and/or a few wounds beyond a Hero Point? Just throwing thoughts out there, as I would like to see this non-combative magic still have some use in a combat scenario.
(On that note, everything else has a clear combat edge. Hexenwerk works against the Undead, Sorte has Pull and Blessings, Glamour is LOADED with potential, Sanderis has creative potential, Mother's Touch has some solid options, and then there's Porte).
To say nothing of being able to instantly flee a bad situation by walking to your Major Mark and leaving your enemies unable to follow. Depending on the group, Hero Points may be freely available, and thus not much of a "cost" to a Porte mage to use an ability that can very dramatically alter the tone of a situation. Having Porte cost a Dramatic Wound (especially for Walking) helps keep a sense of balance to the overall story.
This point I cannot argue, yet I'm on the fence with. A part of me wants to keep the Dramatic Wounds for Walking due to the size of the portal needed (and the smaller portals are HP or minor wounds), yet the idea of enforcing a Dramatic Wound is pretty pricey when used late in the game (again, especially with healing as written). I am still partial to the idea of making it 5 wounds instead (and letting a character spend raises to be more surgical about it), or perhaps a mix of the two (spend an HP to make it 4 wounds instead of an auto Dramatic?) but again, just my opinion and just soundboarding.
"Smilies exist because no one's bothered to create a sarcasm font." --Lost_Heretic
My concern with just allowing a Hero Point for less uses of Porte is that it starts looking less like Sorcery and more like a Knack Advantage, and thus what should be an unusual and slightly unnerving ability starts to become commonplace if the sorcerer can just spend a Hero Point to bring a bunch of desired items to them at a moment's notice.
That, and a "just becuase 1e did this" doesn't really jive well with me as a justification for having different Sorcery types having bleed over into what each one is capable of doing. It seems like the design team is really trying to give each form of Sorcery it's own identity in how they operate, with very little (if any) real overlap between them.
In so far as combat effectiveness of the different types of Sorcery goes, Hexenwerk is only of use if the GM includes Undead as recurring adversaries, which you're probably not going to see a whole lot of unless your campaign has a heavy focus in Eisen. I've been in a couple of sessions where there was a PC with Hexenwerk that didn't really get to use any of their recipes because we never encountered a single undead. Then again, Porte in either edition never struck me as really being a "combat-orientated" ability but instead being a fairly flexible utlity magic with a semi-gruesome feel due to the blood element. Plus, as you've noted above, all the other Sorcery types that have more "combat potential" require a Hero Point straight up. Glamour has the added cost that you need to invest ranks (and thus by the Sorcery advantage numerous times) to really reach their full effectiveness. Sanderis has the risk of Corruption if you ask for too big of a favor, and Sorte has Lashes which can really bit the user in the ass if they're not careful; nothing like being told that any dice under a certain result get discarded when you're about to make a very dangerous Risk, or that the TN for Raises this combat round has been bumped to 15 making even harder to score even a single Raise (both of which happened to the Fate Witch in the campaign I'm in on seperate occasions).
As for the marks, odds are good that most guards (espeically outside of Montaigne) aren't going to really be able to recongize that your Porte mage has put a minor mark on an item, hasty or otherwise. And even then, it's got to be delibrately removed; most guards, not being familiar with the finer points of Porte, probably would see a dab of blood on an item (especialy something like a sword or a small pouch holding personal items) as not much more than a stain. That is unless the GM is being a dick and trying to screw over the player, preventing them from using an ability they paid valuable build points to obtain.
On the matter of keying the usage of Pulling (or even Pocket) to Resolve, I consider that a fair trade for the power and utility of Sorcery. One element that's been consistent with Sorcery in 2e is that there is always a cost involved. Glamour's got the "easiest" cost in terms of following a heroic code of conduct (but also needing to invest advancements to boost your knacks), Hexenwerk requires some pretty disturbing ingredients that may be difficult to come by, may earn you some very wary looks from your traveling companions, or both. Sorte runs the risk of Fate kicking you in the shins when you'd most need it's help (so long as the GM has Danger Points, they can make your Risks a whole lot harder if you've not taken caution with the Lashes you've racked up), while Mother's Touch has literal restrictions how you act; break the deal and you lose your powers until you atone. And Sanderis has the constant temptation of great power which nets Corruption (and we're not even sure yet what happens when the 7th Deal is made). So a Porte-using noble having to choose between focus on the social Traits (Panace and Wits) at the expense of being more capable with their magic (investing Resolve) is fitting, as it's a cost they have to decide if it's worth paying.
Dono's Gaming & Etc Blog
http://jedimorningfire.blogspot.com/
I might consider the five wounds thing for some portals, but I do wonder what sort of limit there would be for trying it in a fully non-combat situation. Like you're in prison. Sure a dramatic wound could still be automatic to teleport out of the prison, but what's stopping you from taking your time bringing your sword, lockpicks and bottle of wine out before you make your daring escape, no wounds necessary. Perhaps the number of wounds can't be brought below 1?
The alternative of course is that we find something that can be used as an alternative to wounds altogether, like Sorte does paying off fate lashes with misfortune. Porte already has Blessures, but they're far too dangerous for characters to engage in with any regularity. Perhaps something based on drawing too much attention from the things between the portals. It shouldn't be something too bad like don't draw too much attention or your character just doesn't come out the other side of the portal entirely (which would be too harsh). But perhaps, there could be some possibility that one can open blessures on a less permanent scale without corruption. You're trying to heal the damage almost as soon as you cause it, but everytime you do it, there's the possibility of some "thing" getting out before you close it all the way. This still wouldn't necessarily be cause for corruption (only the rampant negligence of opening a blessure without attempting to close it behind you would be actively malevolent instead of just irresponsible) but it's a huge story concern, particularly since you'd be considered responsible for exterminating the thing, and other porte sorciers might consider you an active blessure opener for your act.
It's kind of a more role-playing solution that involves more flirting with dangers that can negatively effect your character in story (similar to how Hexxe's have to deal with the stigma of butchering up dead people and Sanderis users have to worry about the negative repurcussions of their favors with the dievas.)
As for catching, perhaps you could just allow a porte user to spend raises to reduce the damage of firearms so long as they have a free blood mark for it. It's a little abstract narratively, but you can just rule to damage that still goes through is whatever smaller amount of blood you spent on the portal (with the justification that the more time you spent concentrating on that portal, the less blood you needed to use.)
Psst, there's a 4pt advantage in Pirate Nations called Whisper to Mother that is very much like a highly specialized Sorte move, just sayin', it might not be the only one for upcoming books. :)
I saw that. One thing that is interesting is that it's actually available to any Buccaneer, not just Sorciers. Of course, as a GM, there's nothing stopping you from deciding that a proper Sorcier could figure out how to do it by dedicating a blood mark toward maintaining the network. Only problem is figuring out how to convince Mother to teach you her secrets, which is likely to be an adventure in its own right.
Sorry for vanishing for a while; had some issues crop up the past few weeks that have kept me a bit too...preoccupied. I'm mostly back for now and hope to get back to the proper discourse here on the forum.
Dono, we may have to agree to disagree again. While I do agree with the sentiment of "1e did it" isn't always a valid point, I did want to flesh out the magic to be more than "I cut myself badly to run away or pull this one object to me." It's also why I was looking at alternative options for the wounds or tying the powers down to a set stat: while all sorceries in the game have limits (and the new magics in Pirate Nations do have some that are rather...interesting, shall we say), it just felt, to me, that Porte got the short end of that stick.
Yes, Hexenwerk works best with a campaign involving the undead, but that should be the GM's responsibility to utilize it. Glamour has a crazy cost for solid progression, but has the most bang (and with some house rules, can be much more fitting for everyone involved). Sorte has Lashes which may make rolls difficult at times, but I think in the end it tends to have more good than bad. Sanderis could involve Corruption, but I've yet to see a player sink to the level in which they need a favor that badly (the temptation was there, of course). Porte just feels like too much of a one-trick pony; most of my players won't touch it for various reasons (some of which I share the opinion of), so I am hoping that there will be options in the future to fix it up or expand it.
For now, I'm just stuck kicking around ideas for house rules.
Ben Woerner, I'm still working on Pirate Nations (had a really bad cold/flu-like bug run through the office and we're all still trying to fully recover), but I did check the advantages early on. I'm really not sure how I feel about a 4 point advantage that costs a Hero Point just to ask something and hear the reply. I like the versatility, just not sure on the balance with the cost.
Evan Sagaser, I do agree that always ensuring one wound is taken is fitting. In the first part of your post (taking time to open a portal for items), I think I'd have the player explain their action/goal and roll accordingly, and let them decide at that point just how much damage they take (and of course, ensuring that they move fast/quietly enough to not be noticed).
I do like your approach to Catch, though. I've been kicking around a similar idea and I think it'd work. Yes, it steps on the toes of Glamour, but it still does fit.
As for the RP element of opening portals, I think we need to know more about what's on the other side for that. We know that Porte in 1st Edition literally ripped open portals in the fabric of the Barrier, and the monsters on the other side would eventually get out. I wouldn't be surprised if Porte works very much like the 7th Sea that is portrayed in Daughter of Fate, but we won't know until we get more books in hand.
"Smilies exist because no one's bothered to create a sarcasm font." --Lost_Heretic
With the changed nature of the Passage Ways, I think it would be great if Mirage (mirror sorcery from late First Edition) were integrated as alternative Tricks for Porte Sorciers. I think it fits the Noble French motifs.
I am considering writing expansion of Porte to fix it.
I give you my 2 cents of the current ideas:
I am thinking following extra abilities:
Hmmm...my only issue with abilities like Whisper (Whisper to Mother notwithstanding), Listen, and Watch are that they ignore the weird "other world" that the porte mage passes through on their way from points A to B. In my mind, the things that dwell there would do their best to distort, twist, and otherwise prevent these sorts of talents from being useful. And I think making these part of the mix demystifies a lot of what makes Porte a creepy sort of sorcery.
ALSO this combination of Talents would make Porte mages the best spies in all of Theah if not the world. Imagine the consequences of that. No foreign nation would suffer a known porte mage inside its borders, regardless of religious implications. Even Montaigne would probably highly regulate these abilities. I don't expect le'empuerer would tolerate this sort of divination even amongst his own. It's just too easy to slip a minor mark on a ring, earring, button, whatever. Last I checked, there's no in-game means to detect a mark, remove it, or bar it from functioning. So the only means of keeping your secrets safe is to eliminate any porte mage within 100 miles of you.
And on 2nd ed you cannot recognize Sorceters with mundanemeans.
No, but you can recognize the guy with scars all over his arms and hands. Then you let your pet inquisitor do his thing. Either you've caught yourself a potential sorcerer-spy, or a peasant no one of importance will miss.
And not all sorcerers make perfect spies. Glamour, Hexenwerk, neither lend themselves particularly to spycraft. Sorte does somewhat, but not to the extent this suggests. Sanderis COULD, but the price would limit its use.
And look, I'm not saying its a bad idea. But think through the ramifications. I mean, this really gives the Montaigne a considerable edge when it comes to spycraft. Anyone worthy of evil overlord status (Villanova) would react accordingly.
Actually, Sanderis can easily work as spy with lesser gifts only.. Spy who can hide in shadow and walk from shadow to another.
Hexencraft can do spycraft. Corpse tongue and Wraithwalk has very good uses for spycraft.
Knights of Avalon: FInesse has Flash and Vanish usable for spycraft. Panache has ability to determine sorcery ability and resist it. Summon Sidhe may be usable for spycraft.
Mother's Touch: Changing into animal, talk with animal.
Sanderis: This is almost totally for spycraft even with only use of minor deals. Major deals are ones which are costly, but thier scale is such that spycraft is their bread and butter. Even better for assassins. Shadow allows you walk from shadow to shacow, or hide into shadow.
Sorte. This is quite obvious.
And determining whether someone is Porte sorcerer or not from his scars is .. quite unreliable. And if the wounds are treated well, there is no scars. Porte is even with my additions weakest of the sorceries, as you have to be able to get Mark into the target by mundane means. You cannot do anything without putting Mark. With 2nd edition mark cannot be easily removed - the washing person has to believe there is mark to be washed and do tedious washing.