Now that we've had some time to run a few sessions of 7th Sea, I was wondering how other GMs and players like the new Dueling Styles. How have they worked for your players? Have you encountered any that are problematic, either by being too strong or not effective?
So far, I've only had Eisenfaust used in combat in my group, but it has proven extremely effective for the player against both Brutes and Villains. The huge bonus Iron Reply gives to both defense and offense for one raise is signficant, even if Iron Reply can only be used once per turn.
I'm particularly curious if anyone has tried out the new rules for Aldana, Mireli or Valroux-if so, how did they seem to your group?
Of the four players at my table, three of them have a dueling style. The three at the table are Aldana, Mantovani, and Sabat, and the last is the only one that hasn't officially been used.
So far both the Aldana and Mantovani had the chance to use their skills, but both of them have the Glorious Virtue which was used to really rack up the successes. I plan on dropping them against stronger villains later to test it, but we're about a month away thanks to schedules and bi-weekly games.
In the fight the Aldana swordsman had, he was trying to stack both Feint and Aldana Ruse, but did it in reverse, leaving his opponent with a 4 wound Feint and a 4 wound baseline Lunge (instead of a 1 wound Feint and a 7 wound Lunge). We've since spoken about the various elements of the school, and we're pretty sold on it. We do wonder if the Feint + Ruse + Lunge combo is a tough one to beat, but I don't find it too breaking, but rather a slight edge compared to other options. We are curious what can be done against someone with a higher Villainy than 5.
Mantovani was pretty upfront. The character focused more on the narrative elements like grabbing items to throw at and around the target in question. The Mantovani Flay wasn't needed as the effects of the "duel" were more narrative than anything (showcasing ability).
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You have an entire universe between Boucher and Torres. We tried the Commenwealth and the Eisen ones. Not bad, but less charming than ever.
The most interesting use is when you use a 15 points Villain with School... You will see.
I like how the Dueling Styles are handled in this edition. There's no longer the long wait from when your purcase the school at chargen in 1e to having your chance to be awesome in a fight, and yet the cost to be a really skilled swordsman in 2e is still higher up front (as it should be) given you're spending at least half of your 15 available Advantages (5 for Duelist, 3 for either Bruiser or Fencer) to get access to those really neat tricks.
I think the principal issue with Torres is that it's one of those "pay off with investment" schools, given it's special move is tied to the Athletics skill. Once a PC is able to boost their Athletics up to 5, then it becomes more useful since it negates a greater number of wounds, but then again so does the basic Parry once you boost up your Weaponry, and boosting Weaponry gives you better chances at getting more Raises and dealing more damage with Slash. Thematically I like Torres, but the style bonus needs a boost. Perhaps have it work as an additional Riposte, negating and dealing damage equal to Athletics? Then again, it does effectively allow you to Parry twice in a row, which befits a defensive-orientated style.
Valroux Press can be very effective in the right circumstances, since it's not only a Parry but also action control; had one playtest duel where a Valroux duelist waited until the Villain was down to his last raise and then forced the Villain to use Feint (as opposed to a Bash or Lunge), followed by the PC using Lunge on his last Raise, taking a single point of damage and the Feint's damage kicker being wasted since the round was over. I do wonder if we'll see the old Valroux Cross show up under the name of Desaix (the Rose & Cross swordsman school from 1e).
Aldana can also be pretty brutal, but it takes setting up and proper timing to make the best use of the Aldana Ruse; Feint + Ruse + Lunge could be an utterly devastating combination, especially if you've got a lot of raises to back it up, but it also leaves you wide open for counterattack if you didn't take your foe down. But even just Feint + Ruse + Slash is effective, or perhaps Feint + Ruse + Riposte for a very painful counterattack.
Mireli is certainly interesting, since you can either double Parry (you attack, target Ripostes, you Parry, target attacks you use Revision to effectively Parry again) or double Bash to really cut down on the damage your opponent can do.
Eisenfaust is suitably tanky, in that you're only going to get one really good swing in, but it's a great response to when an opponent uses one of their big moves (such as the Aldana duelist that used Feint+Ruse+Slash).
Sabat is pure glass cannon, especially if used early and has the same problem I mentioend under Aldana's combo of Feint+Ruse+Lunge if you don't defeat your opponent in that one shot. The Sabat Gambit does make a nice finishing note for the Round, since for most PCs using the style they'll effectively be doubling the damage of their last attack compared to other styles.
Ambrogia is kinda "meh" unless you've got Hero Points to invest, at which point it becomes pretty impressive since a decent Ambrogia duelist should have Finesse and Wits at a minimum of 3 each.
Boucher is flashy, but you're also burning raises a lot faster, which can be detrimental; if you've burned all your raises and your foe has a few left, why shouldn't they just burn them on a Lunge?
Donovan is great for a bodyguard type, especially since you can completely lock down a dangerous foe for the low cost of a single Hero Point. Yeah, you won't be doing much for the rest of that round, but it gives your allies a chance to act without needing to worry about that bruiser of a Villain breathing down their necks.
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I think the principal issue with Torres is that it's one of those "pay off with investment" schools, given it's special move is tied to the Athletics skill. Once a PC is able to boost their Athletics up to 5, then it becomes more useful since it negates a greater number of wounds, but then again so does the basic Parry once you boost up your Weaponry, and boosting Weaponry gives you better chances at getting more Raises and dealing more damage with Slash. Thematically I like Torres, but the style bonus needs a boost. Perhaps have it work as an additional Riposte, negating and dealing damage equal to Athletics? Then again, it does effectively allow you to Parry twice in a row, which befits a defensive-orientated style.
Torres was the one style that seemed most in need of some retooling after I read through the rules a few times. A back-to-back Parry equivalent is nice, but could be potentially dissapointing for a player at the table. Consider a Torres duelist in a party with a Mireli duelist - the Mireli-using Hero can do the Revision as many times as they want, and it can function as a normal Parry Maneuver each time, while the Torres-based duelist can only do the Flourish once a round and has to invest in an an additional skill for it to be as effective as a normal Parry anyway.
My initial thought to make Torres competitive with the other styles was to have the Matador's Flourish prevent Athletics+Panache Wounds when used. This seemed in theme with a defensive and flashy style based on bullfighting. A simpler solution would be to just double Athletics, if you'd prefer, but I like including a Trait, so that the effect of the Flourish isn't tied entirely to a single ability (and I would think a typical student of Torres would be particularly flashy and stylish anyway).
Mireli makes your character almost invulnerable. Alternating between bash and mireli's bash puts your opponent in -5 damage(when you get weaponry 5) next attack forever. They cannot hurt you unless they can hit you for 6 damage so someone with weaponry 4 cannot hurt you, ever. Yes, they can Lunge and hit you for about 13 damage but after they Lunge they are dead.
Sabat is a glass cannon, I agree, but they can finish everything in one hit. When you get weaponry 4, throwing 10 dice and getting 10 raises(15=2 raises) is not uncommon (we tested that a bit). A Sabat duelist with 10 raises only needs to feint once and then Sabat Gambit for 10+4+1+finesse. If they get Finesse 5 and Weaponry 5, which they should, whenever they get 10 raises they win. Period. Lunge cannot be prevented.
Another possible idea with Torres is to take a note out of the Eisenfaust school, and rather than Torres just be a straight Parry-clone, make it similar to Riposte. Namely, that once per round you can negate damage equal to your Athletics, but also get to inflict damage equal to either Panache or Finesse. I'd prefer Panache, but we've already got Aldana Ruse making use of Panache for a damage boost. Finesse already sees a lot of play in combat since it's one of the go-to Traits when making combat-related Risks (right alongside Brawn). Or possibily could go with Wits for the associated Trait.
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That's a good idea. It sounds even more in theme with bullfighting then to evade and make a quick strike.
Either Finesse or Wits could work here, but I feel like this definitely seems to be the kind of school a high Panache character would have - a lot of personality, daring, and style built into it.
A simple fix (and perhaps what was originally meant) for Torres is to let it prevent a number of Wounds equal to Weaponry + Athletics. This keeps Weaponry useful and allows a bonus based upon Athletics.
That could work, too, if it makes sense to the table. Really, it just needs something to keep it from being really underwhelming when compared to the other schools.
I honestly don't think it's underwhelming, it's just a very defensive Style. Giving an additional Parry is nice, but isn't as cool as giving an extra attack.
I don't mind it being defensive, and having Styles focused that way is really important. In a vacuum, having an additional Parry tied to another Skill is a fun, solid ability, but it isn't as good when compared to other defensive Styles:
If I wanted to make a defensive duelist, Torres just wouldn't be topping my list - it isn't as effective or interesting mechanically as the other options. It isn't a bad idea, it just feels somewhat incomplete compared to the other Styles, like there's a line of its mechanics missing. Maybe if you were able to add Athletics to a normal Parry (either as a once/Round Maneuver or by spending a Hero Point each time)? That would make it the Style that can prevent the most wounds, which is kind of a void in the list from the core book (Donovan gives you battlefield control, Drexel gives you one strong ability and a big weakeness, Eisenfaust gives you a more powerful but limited Riposte, Mireli gives you constant defense, and Valroux gives you extra defense with social influence). Then, Torres would be the style for squaring off with one big, much stronger opponent (like a bull).
Just to add to the list of ideas for Torres fixes, take a page out of Eisenfaust and have the Matador's Floush effect be instead to replace Feint, preventing Wounds equal to Athletics+Finesse and inflicting Wounds equal to Weaponry+Panache, with the "once per round" restriction still in place.
That to me sounds very much like something you'd see a bullfighter do, since they'd need to avoid a bull's charge (which could very easily kill them outright) and still be able to make a precise-yet-showy strike to down the beast.
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I really like Harliquinn's fix, and plan to use it as a house rule for my games if a player wants to take Torres.
Just as another idea for discussion however...IIRC in 1e Torres also gave duelists some abilities to change or improve their initiative later in the Round. It would be interesting if this could be brought over to 2e.
Just as an idea, what do people think of an alternate house rule of keeping Torres' special maneuver as is, but adding "When tied for Raises with a Villain, a Torres duelist goes first instead of the Villain"?
I actually prefer Harliquinn's fix, but being able to beat Villains at ties is something none of the schools offer at the moment, so I just wanted to throw that idea out for discussion.
Technically one of the Drexel stances lets you act first on ties, it's just worded differently in that it gives you extra raises that only count for initiative. While it's true that no style actually gives you the clear cut ability of winning on ties, in my mind the extra raises thing is just more useful, since it also has the ability of allowing you to act before a villain with one more raise than you (IIRC the stance adds two raises to your total when calculating initiative)
With Torres, one idea I've had now that it's been clarified that Torres is a second Parry, is that while it still can only be used to avoid Wounds like Parry does, it's special perk is that it can be used against Maneuvers that normally can't have their Wounds be avoided, making it a very nice counter to things like Lunge or Sabat Gambit. Still a reactive thing, which seems to have been the design intent, but makes the fact it uses a separate skill from Weaponry less of a cross to bear since it gives you a solid defense against one of the more potent dueling Maneuvers.
That or make it so that it can either be used in response to an attack or as a pre-emptive effect like Beat, reflecting how a matador readies themselves to sidestep the fearsome charge of a bull after baiting them to do so. Of course, the trick is that it requires you to know the foe is going to use a Lunge, which could lead to the duelist using MF only for the foe to respond with a less potent move (such as a Feint).
I think either of those would make the Torres style bonus a more attractive option in so far as style bonuses go.
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